Shippers are from Venus, Nonshippers are from Mars

[aurora_novarum]

A couple of months ago, on a yahoo fic group I lurk at, a shipper and a non-shipper were having an interesting (and reasonable) debate on "gen fic" and the nature of Sam and Jack's relationship in the early years. In reading the back and forth, I came to an epiphany. I know this will be "so" profound (snerk), but I've come to believe it's a matter of an honest difference in perspectives.

The year I've been in fandom I've noticed this strange fandom divide between the shippers and the non-shippers. The main forum I haunt has both shippers and nonshippers that get along swell most of the time. We each "joke" the other side is delusional and move on to serious discussions about plot...and hairstyles. I've seen other venues where the "factioning" is not so kind, and conspiracy theories abound on how the other group is trying to see nothing/something where something/nothing exists, and demonize/deify characters/scenes that dismiss/focus on this aspect of Stargate–and I will say I've seen some extreme and irrational viewpoints from both sides of the divide, but this little "Stargate essay" is about the majority of viewers and their perspective on ship.

Here's my epiphany: it's an honest and fundamental difference in perspective in viewing the show. Do you know that picture used in psychological testing of the old woman/young woman? (And no, I don't know why a search at "Ask.com" brought me to some CIA manual first for an example of the picture, but it did.) http://www.odci.gov/csi/books/19104/fig3.gif This picture can either look like the profile of a beautiful young woman, or a very ugly old hag. It is practically impossible to see both. If you view one, you cannot see the other. If you transfer your perspective, you can no longer see the first viewpoint. (Footnote 26 explains how you can see the two different women here ).

I think the ship/no-ship is exactly this same kind of dichotomy in perspective. Viewers will see a scene that involve the characters and some will read UST in a look between Jack and Sam, and others will see friends/work superior/subordinate. Is one right and the other wrong? NO!!!! It's just two, equally valid viewpoints of the scene. What brings the fandom debate is that those who perceive one viewpoint fundamentally cannot shift perspective to the other view...why would they? It's perfectly obvious to them how the scene should be viewed, and anyone who's seeing something different is "obviously" deluding themselves. (I've met some people who see the ship and don't like it as a plot device...but they can't see how you can NOT see ship). It's the old hag and the young woman. One person sees ship and the other sees no ship, and never the twain shall meet.

Is this a conscious decision? Occasionally, yes, especially if the viewer is in fandom and influenced by other posters. But I think a lot of it is unconscious, and the difference in perspective shapes your view of the show.

At this point, if you didn't know, (Though if you're reading my journal, you should already be aware of my "stance" on this subject), I'm a nonshipper, always was. I honestly do not see a romantic chemistry between the characters of Samantha Carter and Jack O'Neill. Friendship, yes. Closeness, yes. But not UST/romance. When I came on fandom and read "shippy" interpretations of certain scenes, my response was to say "Really?", and if I squinted and turned my head upside down, I could kinda fuzzily see how some people could get that impression, but it usually just gave me a headache. I love Sam, I love Jack, but I do not love Jack&Sam.

Of course TPTB of Stargate SG-1 have not helped matters any, and from interviews/comments, I've seen various people involved in the show seem to share the differing perspectives as much as the fans. Sometimes they do push the "ship" to a more conscious arena, and other times they pull back. It's a character arc that is inconsistent, and helps fuel the differing perspectives.

The cat and mouse game has driven audience members crazy on both sides. The most blatant example of the fence sitting is the "kiss scene" in Grace. In the dvd commentary, they mentioned how they did some kind of online poll to see if Jack and Sam should kiss. Because of the split results, they ended up doing a daydream within an hallucination due to a concussion.

From my "nonshipper" perspective, when the writers do push ship to the forefront, I see it as aberration that doesn't gel to me, because I honestly don't see the characters that way. Sam and Jack in "Lost City Part 2" reads just as "off" to me as when they kept calling the ZPM Jack created "Asgard technology" in Point of View, or Jacob mentioning he could've died "four" years ago.

I've seen shippers confused at mixed signals as well. If "not exactly" to Agent Barrett was supposed to mean she and Jack had finally connected "that way", why was Sam so ready to reconnect and spark with the alternate Martouf? Was she cheating on Jack? WTF?

This back and forth for nine? ten? seasons now is aggravating. In trying to please everyone, they end up pleasing noone.

So, those are my thoughts on the ship. Anyway, I'm sorry, but that's just how *I* feel about it. What do you think?

Comments

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

I think that's pretty on target. (But you knew that I would say that.)

It's part of the "double-edged sword" nature of fandom that I became aware of when I ventured into online communities. I used to sit in my living room and watch stuff and think that what I saw/interpreted was "obvious." It was a surprise to me to come online and discover that the ships that I thought were rootable were not obvious to everyone, and the ships that I thought were icky were attractive to others.

It can be a challenge for me sometimes to see what others hate or love without it ruining my own enjoyment. I first got involved with online stuff with Buffy. I made many friends and had a lot of wonderful experiences because of it. I will never, ever be sorry that I got involved. But I also swore that I would never get involved in online fandom again because it often complicates my love for a show. But then somehow or another I found my way to the TWoP Stargate thread, and, well, there I am.

Honestly, if it had just been only me watching SG-1 in my living room without any input from other fans I don't think it would have occurred to me to see any shippiness with Jack/Sam. Sure, there are a couple of places where it is overt, but for the most part I just don't see it. At best, I see one officer with a huge crush on her superior officer with said superior officer showing no intention of ever letting it go anywhere. Scenes that are pointed to as "shippy" don't carry that interpretation for me. And I'm happiest with that viewpoint. I've finally gotten a little better at hearing other interpretations but being able to maintain the one that works for me.

Clumsiness on the part of some of the writing when it comes to "ship" is problematic. If they had stuck to some little hints here and there without any sort of overt references and minimal (if any) off show discussion, they would have come a lot closer to pleasing more of the audience. The "no shippers" could have been secure in there "no shippiness" and the "shippers" could have enjoyed their interpretations. It would be easier to enjoy the "what could be" or the "what doesn't exist." In my opinion it's TPTB's they are/they aren't tug of war that has made this so volatile.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Clumsiness on the part of some of the writing when it comes to "ship" is problematic. If they had stuck to some little hints here and there without any sort of overt references and minimal (if any) off show discussion, they would have come a lot closer to pleasing more of the audience.

I agree. The problem is that you give a little and then you have to give a little more to up the ante. You keep increasing it over time to the point where you back yourself into a corner. I think TPTB are at theat point now.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

If they had kept it as a subtext and/or veiled comments here and there, that would be one thing. But they take one giant step forward and two steps back, and do it again and again. It's not like it was a long plot arc, upping the ante. It's more of hmm, let's pursue it, um nah, let's not. Hmm, maybe we should pursue this plot arc again. Ship what ship? We're not having them violate regs. Well there's this attraction... I know a few shippers that have gotten fed up over it...and a few anti-shippers disgusted by it.

All it does is just confuse the issue more.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Puppy! I wanna pet the puppy!!!!

It's part of the "double-edged sword" nature of fandom that I became aware of when I ventured into online communities. I used to sit in my living room and watch stuff and think that what I saw/interpreted was "obvious." It was a surprise to me to come online and discover that the ships that I thought were rootable were not obvious to everyone, and the ships that I thought were icky were attractive to others.

Interesting. This is only the second fandom I ventured into, so all of it is pretty new to me. The first was Lois & Clark, (yes, I was a FoLC), which...kind of a built in "ship" (though we did have debates about Mason for a time).

Honestly, if it had just been only me watching SG-1 in my living room without any input from other fans I don't think it would have occurred to me to see any shippiness with Jack/Sam. Sure, there are a couple of places where it is overt, but for the most part I just don't see it. At best, I see one officer with a huge crush on her superior officer with said superior officer showing no intention of ever letting it go anywhere. Scenes that are pointed to as "shippy" don't carry that interpretation for me. And I'm happiest with that viewpoint. I've finally gotten a little better at hearing other interpretations but being able to maintain the one that works for me.

I have a PhD in it...but honestly, most of the time, it comes naturally to me. There have been times post fandom/S9 I've become conscious of it (like I would never have thought anything shippy of "not exactly" before fandom, but I was aware of it here...I still don't consciously interpret it this way, but I saw the shipper signal).

[nialla]

You know my motto has long been "Ship or get off the pot, just give us a plot."

I don't really care if shippers see something I don't. Or that a group of slashers see something I don't. I think the problem in fandom really kicked in when TPTB got into at a fan level. That gave a sense of entitlement that a fan wouldn't ordinarily have, and with some fans it's made them feel like, "If TPTB say this is how it is, that's how it is. Anyone not seeing it is wrong."

But TPTB conflict their own statements all the time. You can't just pick the part that you want and ignore the rest. Well, you can, but that's another story. ;)

TPTB wrote themselves into a corner. The basic setup from the first episode made it nigh on impossible to have Sam and Jack together without having them go against their oath to the USAF. A little flirting now and again wouldn't bother me too much (prior to TPTB getting out the Shippy Hammer of Doom, that is). Quite simply -- they're both attractive people, and neither of them are blind.

But I can't ever see either of them ever giving up their job just to be together, which is the Catch-22 TPTB have to deal with. They get together and the show's over, because they can't work together and be together as a couple. But in my mind, it would still taint both characters for them to be together even now that Jack's not at the SGC, because it would go against the spirit if not the letter of the law. I think something like that would be a cloud over Sam's career in the future too.

And I would predict a divorce in less than a year, because I can't really picture them as friends, much less lovers, without their work keeping them together.

What I've never been able to understand is why isn't fanfic good enough for what I call the "uber shippers"? I do not want to paint all with the same brush, but some seem to see the ship as the end all, be all, and it must be shown onscreen, or else. I just scratch my head over that one. TPTB will (and have, IMO) ruin onscreen relationships.

I know slashers generally have the "ain't gonna happen, but we're having fun anyway" attitude. I'm thinking perhaps the chance that it can happen on TV is what makes the shippers so focused, but I'm not sure. It's almost akin to cheering for your favorite football team after a while. You start cheering for your side no matter what.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

TPTB wrote themselves into a corner. The basic setup from the first episode made it nigh on impossible to have Sam and Jack together without having them go against their oath to the USAF. A little flirting now and again wouldn't bother me too much (prior to TPTB getting out the Shippy Hammer of Doom, that is). Quite simply -- they're both attractive people, and neither of them are blind.

Heh. I've seen more romantic chemistry between Sam and Daniel than Sam and Jack, but I'm aware MMV. People tell me the Jack and Daniel are the perfect slash couple, but I don't see the HoYay either. ;-) NOROMOS all the way, baby!

I think it's cool that they're all that close and have been through so much because they're all just that good a friends.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with the HoYay or Hetyay interpretations. Whatever floats anyone's boat/ship/barge/flotation device.

I think the problem in fandom really kicked in when TPTB got into at a fan level. That gave a sense of entitlement that a fan wouldn't ordinarily have, and with some fans it's made them feel like, "If TPTB say this is how it is, that's how it is. Anyone not seeing it is wrong."

I agree that TPTB's inconsistentcy has aggravated the splintering of fandom. They couldn't just develop a ship as a plot arc and have it happen/not happen. No, they have to start something that could become an arc, think better about it, drop it, then rethink it again. They also couldn't just let it sit as a subtext so that people could read more into expressions or comments if that's what they saw (see Dan/Jan; Jack/Daniel, Cam/Teal'c, etc). It's now become this "thing".

I don't understand why uber shippers or uber slashers and/or anti-shippers have to come to blows over their respective ideas (I've seen some pretty vicious comments on both sides of the "debate"). I think you have a point. It's the team cheering concept developed to the fanatical level of fan.

I've also met several non-shippers, shippers, anti-shippers, slashers, other shipper pairings, etc. that are reasonable people with just fundamental differences in opinions. That's what I was noticing.

Sigh. Why can't we all just get along? LOL [/pollyanna rant]

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I'm usually a slasher in my perspective. Having said that--while knowing it will never happen on the show (nor do I expect it to)-- to me it's all about characterization and plot. While I adore Sun and Jin in Lost and was rooting for Aeryn and Crichton, I think Sam/Jack is detrimental to both characters. The person I perchieve as Jack would not try to have sex or a relationship with a subordinate. I have no problem with any of SG1 recognizing that their teammates are attractive, because they all are very attractive people. But acting on it? I think it's very creepy when a superior takes advantage of their position to persue a sexual relationship and even if it starts out with the best of intentions, at least one of them is going to get hurt when the relationship goes south. So, I'd hate what S/J would do to Jack.

And I hate what has become of Sam as her character has become totally about her love life. This has become canon now and it's such a sad thing. Ship has damaged her character, or at least what I thought her character was about. I could have went with the ship if they had saved it for the last episode or if one of them resigned from the USAF. Sam could have become a civilian advisor like Daniel. Jack could have retired. Both would have changed the show quite a bit but it would have been in character and I'd have been happy.

As for the PTB, Mallozzi has admitted that the shippers were his powerbase and that in the writer's meetings, whoever had the biggest stack of letters had the most pull in the meetings. He encouraged the shipppers to write so he'd have more political power in his job. But since this group of writers has no bible for the show and use fan sites if they want to check a fact about the show, they obviously have no outline of things to come and we get a multiple personality show and characters. Mallozzi's actions and words empowered the shippers and just threw gasoline on the little individual campfires of the the different groups of fandom.

As I said, I know what I like won't be on the show. I'm happy with a glance or an overt display that they might like each other. Unfortunately, some people are so vested in their POV, if you disagree with their opinion, they view it as a personal attack. Plus there's the big Morality push in the States today. People that view Gays as worthy of beatings and criminalization feel empowered to attack the immorality of slash in their fandom. The viciousness of fanatics is uniquely identifiable as opposed to fans that just aren't happy you're intrepreting the show wrongly.

[nialla]

Heh. I've seen more romantic chemistry between Sam and Daniel than Sam and Jack, but I'm aware MMV. People tell me the Jack and Daniel are the perfect slash couple, but I don't see the HoYay either. ;-) NOROMOS all the way, baby!

I'm totally NOROMO for the show itself, but I'm a slasher in fandom, though I have shipped some too (John/Aeryn is one of my faves). That's the key thing for me -- ship/slash all you want and have a blast with likeminded fans, just don't expect everyone else to see the same thing you do, or to have it spelled out in canon.

I wouldn't call Jack and Daniel a perfect slash couple though. During the first few seasons, there were a lot of moments that could be spun into slash, but could just as easily gone into the friendship category. That's the stuff that I liked. I want to see Jack and Daniel as two people with very different POVs who manage to be friends. I like "odd couples" no matter if they're friends or lovers.

What's really odd is I used to read J/D slash, but as the character of Jack became a mockery of itself, I just couldn't read it anymore. I only read J/D based on a rec from someone whose opinion I trust. I have a very hard time seeing the "real" Jack anymore.

What's really odd is I primarily read McShep now, even though I'm not really attached to the characters as presented on the show, nor even the show itself. I'm thinking it's because I'm not all that attached means I can be more flexible in seeing how various fanfic writers present them.

I agree that TPTB's inconsistentcy has aggravated the splintering of fandom. They couldn't just develop a ship as a plot arc and have it happen/not happen. No, they have to start something that could become an arc, think better about it, drop it, then rethink it again.

I think they realized some of the cardinal rules of television writing. (1) Whoever gets together must break up, and (2) UST is a lot more intriguing than RST.

How many times have I cheered for a couple to get together, and they finally did and then they broke up shortly thereafter? Too many times to count. And if they'd managed to find a way around the regs issue and get Sam and Jack together... then what? What would it add to the show?

[nialla]

Apparently, I was too chatty, so LJ made me split my comments. :)

I don't understand why uber shippers or uber slashers and/or anti-shippers have to come to blows over their respective ideas (I've seen some pretty vicious comments on both sides of the "debate"). I think you have a point. It's the team cheering concept developed to the fanatical level of fan.

I recall being on a list for Farscape fans who were either starting to watch Stargate because of Claudia and Ben, or they'd watch before and were helping to educate the newbies and get them up to speed. One person started going on about the evil Daniel fans and how they'd issued death threats and the like, which never happened, or at least not from the SDJ site that was coordinating a writing campaign to TPTB to get Daniel back. A group of fans cannot control the actions of others who act like assholes. If they could, cons would be a lot more fun. ;)

When I pointed out that it wasn't true that the group was dedicated to writing death threats or saying the show should have been cancelled wihtout Daniel, and while I wasn't a member of the group per se, I did follow the news on their site and others, so I knew what their position was. I was told in no uncertain terms that this was true, because TPTB said so. Never could get them to provide linkage to this statement, but they were undeterred in their opinion.

I think it's just a case of wanting to believe something to the point of ignoring what doesn't fit your theory. Now while I may toss out some wild stuff now and again, I do like to hear as many sides as possible. I purposely go to a non-Stargate specific sci fi board to read a more general view of the show. For me, I'm often tossing out ideas of "why" in relation to things onscreen and off just to get a better grasp of what's going on. I love it when other fans point out some little tidbit I missed, or a discussion about some facet shows me another POV.

I've also met several non-shippers, shippers, anti-shippers, slashers, other shipper pairings, etc. that are reasonable people with just fundamental differences in opinions. That's what I was noticing.

I think in general, most people fall into middle of the road territory. "They don't bother me, so I won't bother them" at work. I don't visit pro-ship sites not only because it doesn't interest me, but because I think they should have a place to play. Just as I expect the slashers to have a place to play in peace too.

But all it takes is a few on each side to carry the banner to war, especially if they're a "name" in their part of fandom, and people are willing to take what they say at face value.

There's also a lot of assuming in play too -- one side assuming they know what the other wants. I've seen a lot of shippers (really being an anti-slasher was a bigger deal than being a shipper) claiming that slashers wanted to see Jack and Daniel slash onscreen. In reality, most slashers recoil over the idea. Simply because we think our fanfic writers would do a much better job than the ones who're paid to write the show. ;)

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

And I would predict a divorce in less than a year, because I can't really picture them as friends, much less lovers, without their work keeping them together.

It's true. Sam even says as much in her interview during Heroes. Something about how outside of work they have very different interests.

The common ground that they share is the SGC. Take that away and there's not much left on which to build. They have different hobbies, very divergent personalities, and different ideas of fun. (I think I just said the same thing three different ways.) Yeah, yeah opposites attract and all that. And to an extent I think that's healthy and invigorating. But, as you say, outside of their work there's nothing really to draw them together. If they were to come across each other as civilians, each would probably note how pretty the other is and they might enjoy a summer fling, but I don't think there'd be much to keep them together for long.

[nialla]

I've had some very good friends at various jobs through the years. Ones that we'd go out to eat and to the movies a lot. Ones that we've sworn we'd keep in touch. Never did. Work was what bound us together, and once that was gone, we didn't have that common ground.

Even if the members of SG-1 worked at the SGC, but were reassigned to different teams, I can't see them spending a lot of casual time together. A lot of the scenes where we see them talking about personal things are predicated by the working on something for a mission.

[(Anonymous)]

This back and forth for nine? ten? seasons now is aggravating. In trying to please everyone, they end up pleasing noone.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. As you know, I never liked the ship on the show, but what I dislike most is TPTB trying to please everyone. *g* Even when they have tried to insert some cute hoyay moments (such as on Friends)--possibly to please the slashers without alienating anyone else, they do it at the expense of a real emotional moment between the characters--something that would show warm friendship rather than lust or love--whether slash or ship. I feel they did the same thing with ship moments--inserted them in place of what I used to like about the show (friendship moments). If they had hinted at the ship and still continued *showing* the actual friendship moments on the show, I don't think I'd have disliked the ship half as much as I do.

I agree with you about the different perspectives and I've often thought about what it said about someone. *g* No, seriously, in my previous fandom there were two main ships (both het), but I noticed that people who liked one ship tended to be people who believed in the "magical" sort of love--fairytales and love at first sight and destiny and fate. The people who liked the other ship tended to believe that relationships were all about compatibility (even if the characters were opposites--compatibility meaning that they complemented each other) and also that relationships required hard work and maintenance to maintain. They also tended to believe that people made choices in life depending on their life circumstances--and that their choices determined how their lives would turn out. Fans of the magical, fairytale ship tended to see life as more predetermined, I guess--believing that everyone had a special someone out there somewhere (and only one).

In the SG-1 world, it's really difficult to say. A lot of Daniel/Jack slashers also really like Daniel/Vala and see her as a suitable sparring partner for Daniel. Since I never liked the "sparring" between Jack and Daniel, but lived for their emotional connection as friends, Daniel/Vala doesn't appeal to me.

And...lol I know I'm getting far off what you originally stated, but I think you're on the right track. I've long believed that no one is right or wrong in the SG-1 ship debates, but that the sense of entitlement that some fans have is not only a turn-off, but rather alarming and, in some cases, downright nasty. I also find it interesting how some of those very same fans would turn it around onto the other group and say that it was the *other* group who were the ones behaving in the very fashion they themselves were behaving. It's puzzling, but it seems to work in politics, so why not fandom? *g* Paint the other guy in such a bad light that the very nature of their side of the fandom becomes like a dirty word... (Or sometimes, I think that it's what you say. They truly believe that they are right, and so think everyone else really is being mean and nasty and deliberately obtuse if they say they don't see it.)

When it comes to Jack/Sam, I also truly don't see it, but I *can* see where TPTB are trying to insert it and I do resent it nowadays because I'm just tired of having it shoved before our faces when TPTB seem to deliberately ignore the things that I like on the show. *g* Or, if they do happen to hit upon something they like, I swear they read my posts and think, "Oh, hey, she likes this. Change it quick!" *g* (No, I don't really think that, but sometimes it really feels that way.)

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

Ack. That's me. I didn't realize that LJ had logged me out. *g*

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I feel they did the same thing with ship moments--inserted them in place of what I used to like about the show (friendship moments). If they had hinted at the ship and still continued *showing* the actual friendship moments on the show, I don't think I'd have disliked the ship half as much as I do.

That's an interesting point. I've found TPTB have taken the characters' relationships as friends for granted for a few seasons (and never fully established them on Atlantis). That's why S9 has seemed so haphazard to me. If they're using character development for ship or UST, that's limiting the bonding and interaction between the characters...especially since it's not like romance ever seems to fully develop as a plotline either...there's no growth in that. If there was, I'd probably (not definitely, but probably) actually pick up on it.

I just read AT's interview on GW (yes I know, I can't believe I went there, but didn't get TOO spoiled). She mentioned that she and CB had a great bonding scene, but it got cut because the ep was 12 minutes over. NO! Don't cut that scene. Cut some other f/x scene (cheaper too ;-), or innuendo. We don't need all the innuendo. Really.

I just want teamy goodness. Is that so wrong?

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I followed you over here from redbyrd_sgfic's lj, hope you don't mind me jumping in.

You've basically summed up my view of the whole shippers/non-shippers debate. I'm pretty firmly in the non-shippers camp, for a variety of reasons. And, like other non-shippers here, it's the on-again/off-again thing which is driving me crazy. Then again, the PTBs have a habit of doing that to just about every potential relationship (gen, het or slash) on the show. At least they are consistent in that :)

My major problem with S/J in canon (my fandom peeves are another thing entirely) is that I can't see it as the fluffy thing the writers seem to be trying to present it as. Apart from everything else, Sam seems to fairly consistently choose men who are, for one reason or another, not exactly happy-relationship material. While Jack would fit that pattern, I don't think either of them could turn it into a ride-off-into-the-sunset happy ending.

Hmm. Ok, that really isn't all that related to your original post, but you prompted something that has been lurking around in my subconscious for a while now.

But back to the point - I'm a non-shipper. I can happily co-exist with shippers of both the het and slash variety, as long as they recognise that my failure to see their ship is not the result of some sort of genetic mutation on my part :) (And, of course, that works both ways).

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I followed you over here from redbyrd_sgfic's lj, hope you don't mind me jumping in.

Not at all! The more the merrier!

And, like other non-shippers here, it's the on-again/off-again thing which is driving me crazy. Then again, the PTBs have a habit of doing that to just about every potential relationship (gen, het or slash) on the show. At least they are consistent in that :)

Hee. You're saying they're consistently inconsistent! That works!

But back to the point - I'm a non-shipper. I can happily co-exist with shippers of both the het and slash variety, as long as they recognise that my failure to see their ship is not the result of some sort of genetic mutation on my part :) (And, of course, that works both ways).

Right! That's exactly what I was trying to say. Are we (nonshippers/shippers/slashers) seeing what we want to see? Or are our desires for the show fueled by what is our automatic natural viewpoint in watching it? Is this a chicken or the egg debate?

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

For me anyway, I like the slash of Jack and Daniel, but I don't really see it on the show. What I saw on the show in the beginning, though, was a special connection between them. I think it'd be called friendship, but in a way, I almost do see it as a family (brothers?) connection.

OTOH, I do think that an imagined slash relationship between the two guys could be written in such a way that it didn't change canon in any real way (i.e. missing scenes, episode tags, that sort of thing) and make it believable.

I don't feel the same way about S/J ship--that an imagined relationship between them could be inserted between canon events and made believable. I understand that others don't see it that way because they view the characters so differently than I do, but any time I've ever seen S/J hinted at (even in a J/D slash fic) it *always* seems that Sam and Jack are completely out of character and just not recognizable to me. OTOH, I've also read plenty of slash fics in which Jack and Daniel were completely out of character and not recognizable to me either, so I'm not trying to imply that all ship writers are bad writers or anything like that. *g* It's just a personal thing with me. I don't see it, but that doesn't mean others can't see it their way.

I have to admit, though, that at first, I really thought shippers were just being rather mean about their ship. Since I honestly didn't see it on the show, I assumed they were just trying to insist that everyone see it their way when it really and truly did not exist on the show. I have run across shippers who felt that way--that anyone who *didn't* see it was being mean or whatever, but I think that by now most people realize that it's just different ways of looking at the same show. There are some undisputed canon facts on the show, but I don't believe that S/J ship is one of them. (OTOH, that doesn't make me blind to seeing when TPTB try to insert it.)

[nialla]

Yes! That's it! The writers are consistently inconsistent! ;)

I think that's what annoyed me more than the ship itself. You'd have episodes where they'd "deal with it" such as Grace, and you'd think it's finally over and done with. But no, it's trotted out again like some zombiefied dead horse they just can't part with.

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

And that's the other thing, speaking of inconsistency. In a lot of ways, Grace did deal with it head on. If they had just let it drop there, I think that would have been a good resolution to the whole thing. She realizes that she's taking a safe choice and idealizing something because it's out of reach. Maybe even realizes that she doesn't really want what she thinks she wants. That's a nice, mature epiphany to have.

But then it starts up again. I didn't fully put this together until just now, but it sort of turns her into an emotional 16 year old. I don't think there's any age limit on becoming fascinated with or developing a crush on someone. (Or maybe I'm rationalizing. I'm well into adult territory and I still develop them.) But part of being an adult is recognizing a crush for what it is and/or recognizing the possibilities of it becoming more. If it seems unlikely to impossible for something real to develop, there comes a point as an adult that you recognize that and find a way to put it aside. You don't keep poking at it. You don't carry on with a false sense that maybe it will all magically change somehow. I mean, you might for awhile. (er, I might for awhile.) But not for years. In the interests of sanity, and adult finds a way to put an end to those adolescent hopes and longings. Or at least finds a way to bury them deeply enough that no one else knows anything about it.

The whole thing demeans Sam. I dunno, maybe this is another one of those "these guys really don't have much of a clue about how to write for women" things. Because Jack comes across as much more of an adult about this whole thing. Whether that's just because of the way RDA plays it or because of the way his character is written as opposed to Sam is, I suppose, another question.

Eeee. I didn't know I was going to go on quite this much!

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

Aprapos of nothing, I'm impressed with your coming up with a topic post that generated enough response to go threaded. Good going there. :)

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Me too. THAT'S never happened before, LOL!

And more, because I can't seem to let this go

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

The other thing that makes this whole topic so complicated is that it starts with a debate about whether there's a ship or UST to begin with. Aside from anything else, that alone makes the Sam/Jack thing problematic.

In the great UST relations of television lore--Sam/Dianne, David/Maddie, R Steele/L Holt, Mulder/Scully--there was not much debate as to whether there was any sexual tension between the two involved. There may have been great debate as to would they/wouldn't they, would they/should they, but I think there was a general acknowledgement that there was something there.

With Sam and Jack there's widespread disagreement as to whether there's even any sexual tension/attraction there to be mined. A significant portion of the fandom seems to see it. An equally significant portion of the fandom seems decidedly to not see it. That's part of what makes the whole issue so problematic for me. The starting point for the arguing and the back and forth shouldn't be "are they even attracted to each other in that way?" If that's a large part of the debate, then UST is already set up to fail because there's a huge issue to be dealt with and resolved before you can even get to anything fun.

In my view UST is either there or it isn't. Since that wasn't a stated goal for Stargate from the start, you have to go with what jumps out from the screen. That from time to time they have to bring it into the story and highlight it with flashing neon arrows (I'm thinking of D&C here) points up the problem. Issues surrounding UST should flow organically from what comes through in the performance and the intangibles. If a large part of the audience has to be told that that's what we've been seeing, that's a pretty big hint that there's not as much to build on as some might hope.

And the recent quotes:

"It's a huge issue," says Tapping. "I don't want to be just pining away for the lead guy." Anderson agrees: "I think there's something sort of rewarding about them maintaining the friendship and the comradeship."

tell me that the two key players still don't seem to be sold on the idea themselves.

Re: And more, because I can't seem to let this go

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Yes! That's an excellent point! For some D&C was an overt acknowledgement of what they had been seeing onscreen from the start. For others (including me), it was a "Where the hell did this come from?" and made no sense based on anything that had been seen previously.

I'll have to rewatch the dvd (the horror! LOL), but I remember RCC commenting on they only wrote the ship into the show because some of the writers were seeing RDA and AT playing it...AT kinda responded with a "Really?" (and mind you this is my recollection from my own (un)consciously biased view).

Even the EW quotes you mentioned. I read that as very non-shippy, but the comments ARE vague. Will a shipper read it as something consummated and/or past now? I will be very curious to see how S10 deals with this. I hope not to fling things around in joy or horror no matter what happens. I try to stay "non-shipper" rather than anti-shipper. ;-)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm following long, too! Great meta! As you might imagine, I agree with absolutely everything in the post and comments. I'm another one of the slashers in ficland who wants noromo onscreen. For a science fiction adventure show whose main characters have to work together professionally in a military environment... they really put their foot in it adding ship, and the inconsistent implementation only made the show worse.

JM does deservedly get a lot of flack for keeping the ship alive. *massive headshake* But I'll also lay a heap of blame on Robert C. Cooper for continually writing the worst "woman in love" characterizations ever:
- The First Commandment - Sam/Jonas Hansen (Sam surrenders her weapon to her unarmed, AWOL, batshit crazy ex-fiance, like a deer in the headlights)
- Point of View - AU!Sam/Jack (AU!Sam has a major fascination with whether this new Jack can replace her dead one)
- Chimera - Sam/Pete (Pete never respected her top secret thing, so she caved)
- Lost City - Sam/Jack (twice Sam tried to initiate a discussion with Jack about her feelings for him, while she's involved with another man, and twice he cut her off and she caved)
- Threads - Sam/Jack (ditto Lost City, though even without a response from Jack it's still implied she hoses Pete because she wuvs Jack)
- Moebius - AT!Sam/Daniel UST, AT!Sam/AT!Jack (Alternate timeline Sam, for no apparent science fiction reason, is suddenly a nervous mouse who attaches herself first to loyal, brave, smart Daniel, but then has her heart captured by the... boorishness? of AT!Jack -- *eyeroll*)
- Unending (spoiler territory)

RCC has written a lot of episodes that I love and are favorites, but the only woman-in-love story he's written that hasn't made me gag is Ascension. He picks up on the "Sam falls for guys who give her direct experience of their emotions" thing, but that was already established by other writers with Narim and Martouf. Actually, I also like his Vala in love with Tomin from Crusade a lot.

If ship wouldn't have been a death knell for the team; if there had been unmistakable chemistry all along; if there had been a consistent, implemented arc; if Sam could have been a Princess Leia in love, not a fainting Victorian... yeah, well, never mind. None of that happened.

But that's just me.

I do get nuts when I see the ship brigade not just squeeing their heads off -- which is fine; I do that, too -- but also campaigning hard to get their version unambiguously onscreen. First of all, that's a slap to all the non-ship fans. Secondly, the shippers can and have written better romance themselves -- why trust TPTB to do it? Noromo with room for everyone to see their preferred pairing(s), or none, is most appropriate for the show, anyway.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Listing those examples, I understand your point (at least DorkSam was still squicked out by McKay--that remained consistent in this universe, no matter the timeline). I still give POV AltSam a break since her grief was SO fresh--and her hair was SO bad.

It's really been that inconsistent implementation that's been the worst. There's been no build up to things. It's random moments interspersed throughout the seasons. If it was dealt with and then moved on one way or another including the consequences, fine.

And I don't mean necessarily "deal with it" as in a full blown relationship. That's not UST...but there's a wide spectrum between no attraction and full committment thing. But no it's just tiptoed around on Stargate. Randomly mentioned in TPTB's normal "anvilly" way so it clunks along like some other plot arcs, causing squees or screams as may be...and then nothing happens until the next AU or random moment. The excuse is, "oh it's the military"...but that's the premise of the show--and it's been to your benefit a lot more than to your detriment! Use it, develop it, or don't go that way.

Like the thing that started this comment lj hopscotch, "Divide and Conquer". I never saw UST between Jack and Sam (of this timeline/universe) before that episode. I didn't like the idea, but hey I was willing to see what they did with it...but they didn't do anything! It was dropped like a rock from the plotlines, and since I'm not seeing the J/S ship, I just well, basically forgot about it, until like three seasons later or something in Lost City (I don't care what people say, I honestly don't see Evol 2 as shippy--yes I apparently have VERY strong NOROMO blinders for this show, I'm not being stubborn, I'm just seeing the old woman where others are seeing the young...or seeing the young woman...you know what I mean).

I do get nuts when I see the ship brigade not just squeeing their heads off -- which is fine; I do that, too -- but also campaigning hard to get their version unambiguously onscreen.

That's where I start to see the line between the average fan and fandom divide and the more extreme cases. I understand wanting or hoping for some resolution to what you've been seeing romancewise, but the "my way or the highway" mentality a few fans create of insisting something happens (and I'm not limiting myself to Jack/Sam or even Stargate either--it's common in fandoms supporting some relationships)...that militant stance gets my back up. I'm "whatever floats your boat" for ships or slash, but telling me your way is right and mine is wrong makes me crazy.